How does your culture inform your understanding of sanctuary? What else informs your understanding of sanctuary?

Where are some areas in you life where you experience “impostor syndrome”? How do you respond to that experience?

Hello and welcome to Salon Sophia. A podcast brought to you by Sanctuary of the Arts. We’re having conversations about art, creativity, spirituality, faith, and religion. We’re interested in all the ways that creativity sparks soulful connections.

We’re coming to you from so-called Vancouver, BC on the unceded and traditional territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples. 

My name is Monique and I’ll be hosting these conversations. I’m the founder of Fully Woven, a crafty care collective and I’m also the community prioress with Sanctuary of the Arts or SotA as we’re fond of calling it. 

As all the ways of gathering together continue to be redefined and as bricks-and-mortar venues start to open up again, we’ll continue with an online presence because it brings geographical distances closer and supports accessibility. This podcast is one of online offerings. We also have weekly creative sessions and seasonal events.

We’re delighted to be sharing these conversations about the relationships between art and sanctuary and how it all relates to spirituality. You may ask, does it relate? We think it does and hope that you’ll come along as we ask this and many more questions.

Musical Transition

Monique 

Okay. Hi, Ron, welcome to our podcast Salon Sophia. We’re very pleased to be speaking with you today I’m most excited to explore some of the topics that you have suggested. And how about. Well, let’s start with where are you? Where are you joining us from? Where are you coming in from?

Ryn  

Yeah, thank you so much, Monique. It’s so wonderful to be here. And today I’m calling from Wabanaki confederacy territory, which is known today as Portland, Maine in the colonial vernacular, and I am seated on a couch and looking out the window. And there’s a really beautiful tree. And I’m not sure what type of tree it is. Because I’m not, I don’t know enough about trees really, at this point in my life to be able to tell, but it’s lovely. And there’s there’s lot of greenery and I have all the windows open because it’s a really lovely day out. So there’s a chance that you may hear some background noise. At some point during this conversation. I also live kind of near a fire station. So sometimes we get fire ambulances and trucks running by with sirens. So if that may happen, just to give you a heads up, but yeah, it’s a it’s a really lovely view. And I’m really happy to be kind of in this position right now to just be able to look out and see everything blooming.

Monique  

Yes, I that’s some a really wild synchronicity, because I’m also seated on my couch, looking out my window is a tree. It’s a Norwegian maple. And there’s lots of flowers blooming. And I am also on a street that has a firehouse, so and I have a chatty cat. So whatever happens in the background happens, I’m totally cool with, you know, background sound, it adds ambience. 

Ryn 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Monique

And I’m curious about if you wanted to give a if you wanted to introduce yourself, tell us about who you are. Sure. Such a little question.

Ryn 

Very small. Sure. Yeah. My name is Ryn and I, I’m kind of pronoun ambivalent, but I do see them as fine. And I am primarily a writer, I would say I am a laxed academic. So I was in academia, I was in a Ph. D. program for about seven and a half, eight years, and then dropped out, right, kind of a couple year or two before I finished would have finished theoretically. And that sort of left an indelible mark on my psyche, I think for better and worse, but it sort of helps frame my kind of life story in such a way because it’s you know, that’s a pretty big chunk of life almost a decade in, in school when I’m under 40. So, yeah, just sort of thinking about that, in terms of just percentage of my life is quite large. But yeah, I’m a writer, I tend to write a lot of different things, mostly fiction, but not all, I write a lot of kind of like speculative fantasy type of things magic do especially Jewish magic. I really enjoy writing sort of fictionalizing experiences and adding little twists and turns to things that might have really happened, but like to kind of, you know, add a little twist of some magic in there. I also I write poetry, sort of, I don’t really consider myself a poet. I wish I were i It’s sort of an aspirational thing right now. But I kind of enjoy I do enjoy writing it. I enjoy songwriting, even though I’m again, that’s also kind of aspirational, because I haven’t written more than like 15 songs ever. But that’s still something right. So yes. And, yeah, I guess let’s see, I am also a ritualist. I am an ordained kohenet, which is a Hebrew priestess. So in, in the Jewish world, the Kohenet Hebrew Priestess Institute is a program that is a feminist leadership program for people who are really interested in creating embodied and earth based rituals. And it’s a three year training program that ordains people to kind of go out into the world and do rituals. So basically, like your traditional or non traditional, like marriage, birth ceremonies, death ceremonies, funerals, you know, naming ceremonies, transition ceremonies, like any kind of ceremony or ritual that might be needed, and then to create a bunch more that maybe we haven’t even thought of yet, right for like things that that need names and things that need to be recognized and celebrated or mourned or, you know, basically held right so 

Monique 

Yes, we are really lacking in rituals in our society. There are so many transitions in life that we just kind of as a society just want to breeze right through. Don’t want to honor them at all. Like you mentioned mourning. And I think about I’ve just gone through menopause. I’ve just started menopause in the last year, and I it is a celebration. I am so thrilled with it. But there’s no ritual. 

Ryn

Congratulations.

Monique 

Yeah, thank you. And there’s even just from childhood to adolescence, or first time riding a bike learning how to balance on a bike. I don’t know, maybe that’s, I’m taking it too far. But I definitely have a yearning for more rituals.

Ryn 

And I mean, yeah, I genuinely believe there’s a ritual for every everything. So think bike riding rituals would be amazing. Personally, that would be that’d be awesome. I don’t know how to ride a bike. Once I, I actually, I knew how to ride a bike at some point. And then supposedly, you’re not supposed to be able to forget that. But I did like my butt. No, we’re not ready. For that.

Monique 

Your your, your fascination with the Jewish magic. does that play into this spiral time and the Jewish calendar?

Ryn  

That’s a great question. Thank you. Yeah, so one of my favorite things about the Jewish calendar is that it’s not entirely solar or lunar. So like our calendar is the Gregorian calendar is mostly solar, right. So it’s usually connected with like the sun. And it’s always the same number of dates, and every month every year, and you’ll never have an extra month hanging up the calendar. But in Judaism, we have a solar lunar calendar. So it’s unlike the Muslim calendar, which is entirely lunar. So like, they can have Ramadan at any time of year, depending on what the year is. Like, sometimes it’s in the spring, sometimes it’s in the autumn. And, and in Judaism, you usually have the holidays pretty much in the same season that they usually are, but it can be a month or two different every year. And that’s because it’s like, mostly solar, but also kind of it’s mostly lunar, but also a little bit solar, I guess I would say. And what that how that works is that every every New Moon is the beginning of a month. So the beginning of this past month, which is Iyyar, which is the month of healing in Judaism 

Monique 

that’s the month we’re in right now? 

Ryn 

That’s the month we’re in right now. Yep, we’re about halfway through it is today is the, the 12th or 13th. of Iyyar, I think or maybe the 11th. It’s like always one or two days, almost always one or two days separate from the day on the Gregorian calendar. Well, not always, sometimes it’s like pretty off. But today, it’s mostly, you know, pretty close to the date. And then in the middle of the month is the full moon. So usually the 14th or 15th of the month is going to be a full moon. And then we end the month on this around the 30th within kind of waning or balsamic moon again. And that’s really beautiful way to mark time because I can always look at the date and be like, Oh yeah, I know what the moon looks like, or I can look at the moon and go, Oh, I know what day it is, which is really kind of funny, and really peaceful and beautiful way to connect time and place. Like quite literally, you know, so that always makes me really happy when I think about it. And then yeah, the reason that the calendar can be so different every year is because because we lunar, the we tend to we tend to shift away from like the seasons unless they throw an extra month in every few years. And that’s why they do that. So every three years, so years, there’s an extra month of Adar and Adar is called the month of what they all have certain names based on Kabbalah. So based on like mysticism, and so the month of Adar is like usually about joy. And that’s the month where the holiday Purim is and every few years you have to Adars so there’s Adar Aleph and Adar Bet and this year we had two. It didn’t mean that you celebrate the same holiday twice even though there’s there’s two of them. But you do have an extra an extra month to kind of get into the holiday celebrations, which is kind of cool. And so yeah, I just I really enjoyed the the cycles of Jewish time and I kind of like to think of it in kohenet tradition and like my priestess ordination tradition is more of a spiral than like a circle, necessarily. The spiral, or I guess with a circle like it sort of implies that you’re going around the same loop all the time, but with a spiral you’re like, you’re you might feel like you’re in the same place, but you’re always coming closer to something 

Monique

Yeah, 

Ryn 

You’re always kind of moving in a trajectory. I can feel maybe similar like, so like this one, this Iyyar is similar to last Iyyar from last year, but it’s still obviously a different time and a different place that we’re in. And so, yeah, so the spiral of it just sort of feels like important to mark the, the way that time shifts and flows through our own being and through, like the universe itself. And just yeah, things, things like that. So, yeah, just kind of thinking about time.

Monique

Yeah, I think about time too. And I sometimes feel like I’m a time bender, like, I sometimes feel like, I can feel the time slip and stream differently. And I’m out of sync with the world. And I feel that way, because I live with chronic illness. And I just time just means something different to me. And yeah, and I do like thinking of time as a spiral. And my experience of time as I’m on a spiral path. Because I as I many times I keep coming up against the same message, the same scenario, the same narrative, same rocks on the path, I stub my toe on the same rocks. And it’s different, but it’s the same. And I think that’s why it’s a spiral rather than a linear journey.

Ryn

Yeah, so agree, I think one way that most people in Western society tend to look at time is very linear. And like, also, this is kind of an academic word coming from my training, and that but a teleological only still like something that is not only linear, but also progressive, and that things are dependent on things that came before in a way that’s like advancing some sort of cause. So like, I guess, by which I kind of mean, like, yeah, like, I’m thinking about, like, the way that history is, is developed is traditionally in America’s in a in the US context seen as a teleological story. So like, oh, yeah, it was inevitable that this would happen. And I think that’s a very I don’t like that way of thinking because there’s no room for like, change or growth or for failure, or like any difference

Monique

No room for creativity. 

Ryn 

Yeah. Like, yeah, it’s just like, Oh, we’re, we’re the US. And we’re, you know, the best and we’re supposed to be like, no, like, we thought so. And that’s also very colonialist to like the kind of drive of like, oh, yeah, we’re always supposed to be here, Manifest Destiny kind of idea. So I feel like that kind of working against that as sort of one thing that the spiral way of time tries to do, I think, or ends up practicing, because we’re always moving from a perspective of like, things are always changing. And they don’t have to be totally linear or totally like, projected from like the past, based on what we’re kind of expecting like that, there’s always going to be some kind of difference or change going forward. And that feels much better to me than like, Oh, we’re, you know, this happened, because that happened in the past. And now like, I feel like I’m not explaining this very well. But like, yeah, just kind of thinking about the way that time moves forward as much more fluid than the way people sometimes think of it.

Monique 

Yeah, one thing I thought of when you were speaking about that fluidity of time and how it’s how you can be open to change, and it doesn’t, it’s not inevitable, the future is not inevitable. And I was thinking that, that it might be, even though cuz sometimes change can be quite frightening, right? So on the spiral path, even when it’s new, even when things are generative, and new. It’s familiar. So there can be there can be some security some some safety found within change, because there is a familiarity to it.

Ryn 

Yeah, I really liked that. That’s, that’s interesting. Yeah. And like, it can be helpful to see, oh, I stubbed my toe on that rock last time I’m gonna do it again. But like maybe learn something else from it, this can be helpful. And I think it’s also Yeah, really helpful to think of the future is not fixed because especially politically because I feel like when we’re thinking about ways to change the future, or the trajectory of history, it can be really disheartening to be like, Oh, it’s already set. You know, it’s already going to happen in a certain way. That’s usually not good for people, you know, for marginalized people especially and like, no, like, if we think of, you know, possibility, what’s possible. A lot of things are still possible, you know, even in like the wake of manifold disasters and institutionalized depressions and like things are still possible and that feels really important to, to name and to like strive for, I think

Monique 

things are still possible. I believe that truly and I’m fascinated by your creative writing process and world building and creating new characters and new stories. And I’m wondering if that helps to bolster a sense of that there are possibilities like you, you are actually put in using your pen on a piece of paper, or maybe you type on a computer, but you are somatically playing out a different reality.

Ryn

Right? Yeah, no, that’s, that’s great. Um, I think a lot about this term that I heard a few years ago speculative memoir, sounds like a contradiction, but it’s not quite like it’s it’s sort of a fictionalized autobiography of oneself. Which, you know, can kind of mean that you play a lot between the borderlands o

f fiction and nonfiction. And that’s like, a really fascinating place for me to think about, and I guess, that came up when, when you mentioned, you know, what you just said and kind of thinking about? I think I, I can’t remember where I read it, I think it was on. Well, it was online somewhere, maybe I’ll send you a link with I can find it in the future, but and you can add it to the show notes if you want. But yeah, just thinking about the way that speculative memoir or other kinds of fictionalized, nonfiction kind of enables you to kind of take more power in like the past also. So like, if something happened to you that you don’t want to relive, you can sort of rewrite that or like, write a different ending, or like, it can be really empowering, you know, you can kind of change something you can sometimes, I think one of the things that the people said in the article that I read about this was that sometimes a fictionalized version of what happened feels more true than the thing that actually happened. Which is something that comes across a lot in people’s work, when they write kind of fictional nonfiction or whatever that kind of, you know, paradox is, because sometimes it’s sort of the way that poetry sometimes can feel more touching than, like straight up prose. Because there’s something there’s something slantwise coming in through the meter, and the, the kind of verse that doesn’t always come through and like I did this, and then this happened. And then this happened, you know, the, like, kind of prosody of prose. 

Monique

Yes. 

Ryn

So yeah, it just, it seems like, so I guess to go back to your initial question, it seems like yeah, that writing fiction in a way that can address the full spectrum of possibility can really be productive in like a really generative way. And so yeah, for me, when I’m writing, I am often blending fact and fiction, and seeing that as a really potent place to grow and to address different possibilities that can emerge from that. And, yeah, like to give a brief example, I wrote a story a few years ago that I’m still trying to get published. So it’s like still being sent out. But I that’s kind of the writing life, but it’s a story about a, it takes place in like the 19, the late 19 teens in Brooklyn, and there’s, you know, a family of Jewish Jewish women and they live in like a tenement. And that’s all like, pretty historically accurate. And then there’s a demon that they see. And demons are actually pretty common in Jewish mythology and history, in the kind of folklore. And so it was really interesting to write that story and have it be like, kind of accurate to what the time would have been, but like maybe not factually accurate, like, whether or not we believe demons exist today. Like, right, you know, I don’t know, but like, there are certainly some forms of demons exist, I think, and whether whether or not they’re, you know, mystical is maybe another discussion. But yeah, I think it was really interesting to write that story. And to sort of think through how the people in it were sort of real in that they had real desires and real you know, thoughts and real motivations that people might have today or might have had back then it was just the like, the fantasy or the mythological components that weren’t quote unquote real but that we might still consider real because like, What even is exactly you know, so yeah, like reality can be very subjective and can very definitely vary from person to person depending on like, what you ask of them, which is why witness testimony is such a minefield sometimes because people always have a different story. So yeah. 

Monique 

Oh my goodness. Yes. Do you see me just sitting here looking at you with heart eyes? Yes, that was fab. I yeah, I think there’s demons walking around. I think there’s deep there’s demonic influence and I don’t see it as like the way that Hollywood portrays it but

Ryn 

Right

Monique

yeah I can get with the mystical and mythological side of life for sure I can. Yes. I’m trying to gather my thoughts together, because my mind is truly and well blown by what you’ve just shared with us. I wanted to circle back to you had at the very beginning mentioned that you have you’re in academia, you have the incomplete doctorate is that I am also incomplete in my, I didn’t do postgrad, but my graduate studies are incomplete. And it’s, it’s actually, I feel really bad about it. It’s a source of a little bit of shame. And it’s a source of sadness, and a source of anger as well. I’m like, I really wanted that. I really wanted that. And I don’t know if I’m ever going to be able to complete it. But as we’ve discussed today, anything’s possible. So nothing’s inevitable. Maybe is some other timeline, Monique is completing her graduate degree. And I sometimes feel like an imposter and I in my life. And my vocation, and I know you have things to say about impostor syndrome, and how to how creativity can be a route a path, a path through that self doubt, do you?

Ryn 

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, this is something I think about a lot. But also, because I spend a lot of my time being like, I’m making things up, and nobody’s called me on it. And they’re gonna figure it out eventually, that I’m like, not a real, you know, whatever. Which is always coming up. But yeah, I mean, to Yeah, to go back to my graduate program for a second I yeah, I guess, to be in a program for, you know, that span of time, or like, the span of time you were in your program I was in mind for, like, eight years, I think I said, and that’s like, yeah, that’s gonna leave a bit of a mark on like, how I conceptualize myself in the world and what I think about myself and like, yeah, it’s sort of just say, to some extent, like, Yes, you, you know, complete, I complete a master’s like, great, cool, but also, like, didn’t get the doctorate. Okay, fine. You know, there are a lot of reasons for that, which I can get into later if you’d like. But for now, it’s just law, a lot of a lot of stuff around. And, yeah. And so, yeah, kind of coming out of academia. And returning to my own practice, was a bit of a bit of like, I don’t know if I could swear, can I swear on this podcast?

Monique  

I think so.

Ryn   

It was a bit of a mindfuck. Honestly, like, it was a bit like, whoa, what to try to try to move from, from doing work in a very almost teleological sense to like a very, like, strict linear, like, do this, then do this, then do this, then do this because time moves in a very straightforward way. And you can’t go back you can’t, you know, turn away you can only go forward type of thing to move from that to like, okay, you can write for yourself now. And you can do anything you want was like what? Wait, what? It’s just very, very confusing and very difficult time. To like, kind of have all these barriers suddenly lifted, and also have myself back again, was was strange. I’m good, but like strange. And so. Yeah, so think about imposter syndrome. And creativity is kind of a little bit tricky, because I definitely think of myself as an impostor. Even in my creative work, even when I’m like trying to, you know, do it because it’s like, oh, yeah, like, there’s always a thing. Maybe this is true for every art form, but at least with writing for me, it feels like well, I may have written x number of essays, books, well, not books, but like essays, articles, fiction, stories, poetry, whatever, but I’m not going to be able to do anything else because obviously that was all alone, or something. And then like, the next thing that happens is like, oh, you know, I don’t know how to write anymore. And I get convinced that I can’t actually write anymore. I can’t I can’t do it. Because everything that comes out is garbage. You know? And so that there’s always this this this thing where that that phase just comes out for the first time every cycle in my in my writing life where it’s Nope, just trash. It’s just awful. Everything that comes out bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. And then I’m like, You know what, like, thinking about it? I think I heard this analogy from someone else but like, don’t critique your test pancakes like if you’re making pancakes and you’re like, you’re just making a couple to test out the batter like don’t call them shit. They’re just pancakes. They’re fine. If you’re practicing your your pancake, you know, technique. And so it’s been helpful for me to remember. And my wife is also really good at reminding me like, yes, it’s just practice, it’s okay. It’s not actually like high stakes, you’re fine. Like, you’re not going to die from writing badly, it is okay to just write something and have it be bad or good. And one of the things that my wife says that I especially love is they say something like, if you’ve written something bad, take delight in it, and cackle because you’re a witch who has created something magical, again, because of the power of like, the not caring or the like, I don’t give a fuck about how bad this is or not like the not caring about how it’s received, or how what the quality itself might be. It’s just made for me, that’s pretty powerful, actually, just being like, Oh, this is just something that I’m doing because I wanted to do it. And just the process makes it worth it. And in fact, the product is like, it’s not insubstantial. But it’s not the reason why we make art necessarily. Part of it is maybe but the process seems to be the key. Yes, to a lot of it. So. So yeah, I’d say this, the creativity is what runs through the that’s sort of how I run through the creative process, when I’m feeling a lot of imposter syndrome is like, Okay, remember, like, it’s about the process, have fun with it, which is hard. When you’re not having fun, it’s hard when you’re kind of hitting your head against a wall be like, well, this isn’t fun.

Monique  

Yes. And it’s ironic that it’s the process that’s triggering the, this isn’t fun, but it’s the process that’s gonna get you that’s gonna, you know, take you through that fun.

Ryn 

Exactly. And I just read a book, or I’m reading a book right now that I would recommend, which is called Revision as Spiritual Practice. And it’s by I have the name Elizabeth Jarrett, Andrew. And she talks about writing as like transformational. Writing is something that not only transforms your own practice of writing, but to transform you as like a being in order to revise something. And I was like, Oh, that’s so true. You know, like, of course, writing is, or any kind of art is going to be transformational in that sense, because you’re always going to be renewed and challenged by your work. And she also says in that book, like, if you find yourself not knowing what to do, go to the page, return to the page. And that just reminded me so much of like, return to the mat, and like yoga or return to like your seat in like Buddhist meditation practice in this like sit zazen and like sit due to your meditation, just keep going, just do it again. It’s a practice. And that really helped as well, to really think about it as a practice and less of a like, just final products kind of thing. Yeah, so I think a lot about that.

Monique  

I do I do too, right. And when you were talking about how you write sometimes and how it’s, it’s crap, and you’re like, I don’t know if that was the word you use, but you’re not pleased with it. I do that too. I’m learning watercolor right now. And, and I joyfully share my watercolor creations on my Instagram feed, and they look like a two year old made them. But I am so thrilled because I made that I had a thought in my head. I pulled out my paints and water and brushes and paper. And I taped the paper, put a whole ritual around there, right a whole little scenario happens. And I have fun when I’m doing it. I feel free. And I feel unbound from time and unbound from all the pains and the ickiness in my body, and I just paint, and then I share it because I want to share to show first I want to share my joy. And I just want to show people that art and creativity. It’s not in all caps. It’s not a capital letter. It’s not a private club. It’s open to everybody. Everybody’s creative. 

Ryn  

Yep. Absolutely.

Monique

Everybody, everybody has art everybody is art. And that’s why I share it. So yeah, my, my ugly art my primitive naive art. I’ve been calling it naive art because I’m untrained. But I’m curious. And that’s an interesting sound. It sounds like there’s a blue whale passing by the podcast.

Ryn   

I love that. I love the blue whale idea. A blue whale that is also a motorcycle like also a whale with like wheels

Monique  

and big mufflers instead of gills

Monique & Ryn  

**laughter**

Monique 

Well, as you know, this podcast is for Sanctuary of the Arts. That’s the online community that we’re starting to build and Sanctuary has very specific meanings to people. And I’m curious if you had thought about that word and if it has any meaning specific meaning for you, and and then tacked on to that. I’m curious if there’s times where your creative practice has been a sanctuary for you. And if you’re comfortable sharing a short story or a time when that was the case?

Ryn  

Yeah, absolutely. Um, the word to me has sort of Christian connotations, which isn’t a bad thing, but it’s just something that I’m always like, oh, like, I’m sure, yeah, it’s definitely a word that exists outside of Christianity too. But to me, it’s like, has this sort of Christian context, but the word that I associate with it, in the Jewish context would be Mishcon, which means dwelling? Yeah, and it’s, um, it usually refers to the triumph of the what? Why? Because I knew I was gonna forget, yeah, like the portable shrine, the tabernacle that

Monique

I was just gonna ask you to be the tabernacle, like the tent and the move like it would move with the people as they were through the wilderness.

Ryn 

Exactly. And I really love the idea of like, a portable sanctuary or shrine, yes, because it’s like something that you can always have with you. And it’s sort of, like in the Jewish context, it’s like a diasporic thing, right? Because, you know, we don’t have, or at least as a non Zionist, I’m like, I don’t have a homeland. This is my homeland, wherever I am, and like, my heart is my home type of place. My community is my home. And so yeah, just thinking about sanctuary as a place that is where you are. And that follows you is really powerful, I think. Because then it’s like, well, wherever you need to be, that’s where you are. And that feels really lovely. Yeah, so and then, as far as like stories, I don’t necessarily have a specific story. But one thing that I do that feels really magical, is every once in a while, every probably few months, I will, I will wake up at like, totally unexpectedly at like 4am or three or something, and not be able to go back to sleep, and then I’ll come outside, not outside, I’ll come out to the living room and sit on this couch and start writing with some music on. And I’ll just feel totally transported because the time is like so open because no one else is awake at that time. I mean, that I can say, you know, and it just feels really magical. And like really, like, time expands to be very slippery, I guess. All of a sudden, it’s like, Oh, time is just so big. And like anything can happen. And I can write for years and only seconds and or minutes. And that just feels really nice. Even though it’s always like the next day. I’m like, why did I do that? I’m so tired. At the time, it’s always like, Oh, this is wonderful. And it usually leads to some really interesting work that comes out of that. So to me that feels like a sanctuary. Like that feels like when the art is really coming through. And it feels like wherever you are, that can happen sometimes when you have a quiet hour, you know? And that’s Yeah, usually for me that’s like, up the middle of the night. But sometimes it can be like dusk, or like sunrise or, you know, mid morning and it just happens to be whenever there’s quiet time, or you can see the moon or something, you know, so it’s just really feels like a sweet time. 

Monique 

Yeah, it does feel like a sweet time. I like those moments as well there. It’s hard to put words around it. But some of the qualities when I’m in those moments, like you said, time is slippery time is spacious. And I feel both huge and like, my head is up in heaven and my toes are digging down into the soil. Like I feel completely rooted and grounded. But I also feel extremely expansive. It’s just such a magical place to be.

Ryn   

Just feel like that. somatically that’s so true. I wonder why that is? Yeah, it feels really expanded. Like it feels like the top of my head is sort of open. Yes, yeah.

Monique

There’s a poem I read. I don’t know, maybe 35 or 40 years ago, and I can’t even remember who wrote it. I just remember it was a Catholic nun. And she did a lot of like street ministry work and she was poet. And she was a social activist. And one of the lines from her poem was pretty much what I just said her that angels were combing her hair as her toes sunk into the soil, or the dirt and I’m paraphrasing because I just kind of remember the gist of it. And every once in a while I go down a Google rabbit hole trying to find this woman’s poetry and hopefully one day, it will come back to me her name and I’ll be able to find her poetry again, because I’ve just got that one line, but it summed up so well, many of my well, religious experiences just for lack of another another phrase, but those times when I feel I’m in the presence of something holy, when something beyond me, but absolutely within me. Yeah. That’s what I thought of when you when you were speaking of the tabernacle and how it travels, and the tabernacle is within the people, but the people are also in the tabernacle like it’s, yeah, it’s relationship.

Ryn 

Yeah, absolutely. Let me know if you ever find that poem. I’d love to read it,

Monique  

I will share it, I’ll get billboards, I’ll share it. I want to thank you very much for your generosity of time. I mean, this was really, really quite sweet really did my heart good to hear you. And I’m pretty sure that the other people listening are going to enjoy it as well. And I want to give you an opportunity to if there’s if there’s anything that’s been left unsaid if there was something else you wanted to share.

Ryn 

Um, I guess one thing I would say is that music is really important to me, I didn’t really get to touch on that too much. But I just wanted to share that I listened to music so much. It’s such a part of my practice. I think I have a Spotify subscription, which I feel mixed about, because it’s not a very good model for the people who are, you know, musicians, but I do listen it constantly. So I think last year, it told me that I had listened to 69,000 minutes of music. Wow, all year was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Because I pretty much listen from like dawn till dusk, you know, while I’m working or writing or doing something. And that just feels important to name because I think oftentimes I’m like, well, that’s going to have an effect, that’s going to have an impact on what I’m actually doing, right? Like, you can’t have that much stuff going through your mind without any result. And I usually find that it’s music that gets me into the like, spiritual state that I need to be in to write. And it doesn’t have to be like, spiritual music. It just can be anything that makes me feel a yearning or longing. And oftentimes, I know a lot of people who are writers talk about, you know, what made them realize they needed to write something like a book, or what, what gave them an idea for something or what the first scene that they were going to write about was, and when they realized that, and for me, it’s like, I don’t really think of scenes so much when I’m starting a project, but I do think of like moods, or vibes, I guess. So like, whenever I hear a song that is really going to connect with me, sometimes I’m like, Oh, the book is like this song. The book is like this song, it feels like this song. Or it feels like this chord change or even like this gesture. And so that can be really interesting to dive into when I’m working. Because I haven’t yet learned to translate a song into a book. So I’m working on it. But it’s something about Yeah, moving through. It’s something about the way songs and music moves somatically through the body, too, I think that it makes, you know, I mean, like, literally, you know, you can get chills listening to something right. And you literally have like goose flesh on your skin pimpling up and you can have your heart racing a little bit or beating faster, or stronger. And you could feel like the high of like the music. And so yeah, that’s really important to me when I’m working. And just thought it would be remiss if I didn’t mention that. So yeah, I’m just so curious about music and working with it. And that’s also why I’m hoping to do more music writing in the future. Yes, yeah.

Monique 

I was once working on, I had a grand idea to write a memoir. And I may still, I liked the idea that you were sharing earlier about the fictionalized memoir. I’m going to look that up after our conversation. But I was one of the tips that somebody gave me was, she told me about a website where you can say I’m trying to conjure up memories from 1978 that there’s this website I can go to and I type in the year and generally the genre of music that I enjoy, and it will play music from that year in that genre. And I can listen to it as I’m writing.

Ryn 

Wonderful. Yeah, that’s perfect time capsule. Yeah.

Monique 

Music is very evocative, and it’s one of our last sensations to go are lost faculties are our understanding and our memory of music. Hum, yeah. I mean, do you have a song right now that’s it. In pretty heavy rotation. 

Ryn

Yeah, Ihave. I’ll tell you the name of like the artist that’s been in my rotation for like the last five years, which is Agnes Obel. She’s a pianist and a vocalist. She’s Danish. So she’s released four albums, I think. And they’re all always on in my house. So she very melancholy, very beautiful stirring music. That’s kind of I would say, it’s like, yeah, it feels like it’s spinning through like my whole soul. Like it usually feels really beautiful. And it’s also a little dark. It’s like kind of melancholy but always feels good and sort of like feels transformative in a way to go through her music. So I would really recommend her her especially her later stuff. Yeah.

Monique

Okay, I will look that up. And I will, of course, create show notes and share with everybody who’s listening so they can easily find some of the things that you’ve that you’ve touched on. So again, thank you very much for your time, Ryn.

Ryn 

My pleasure. Thank you.

Musical Transition

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai